Foley's Friday Mailbag

Foley's Friday Mailbag: June 22, 2012

T.R. Foley

6/22/2012
T.R. Foley, InterMat Senior Writer
foley@intermatwrestle.com, Twitter: @trfoley

InterMat senior writer T.R. Foley answers reader questions about NCAA wrestling, international wrestling, recruiting, or anything loosely related to wrestling. You have until Thursday night every week to send questions to Foley's Twitter or email account.

Q: What do you think of the Jordan Oliver vs. Logan Stieber non-takedown call at the end of the match? Didn't he meet takedown criteria? Don't we see less control called takedowns all the time, especially at the edge of the mat?
-- Mike S.


Jordan Oliver was close to securing a takedown in the closing seconds (Photo/Kevin Schlosser, BuckeyeWrestling.com)
Foley: Blargh. I don't really want to answer this question because I know that there are too many people that think I'm irrationally high on Logan Stieber, but I'll give this question my best bi-partisan effort.

My contention has been that Stieber's chest lock kept his position active, and that with Oliver's head stuck in Stieber's crotch no takedown should have been awarded. Even when you look at Oliver's grip, his left arms seemed to be wrapped around Stieber's extended right leg, but Oliver's right arm was around Stieber's left shin and ABOVE THE PLANTED FOOT. Stieber's chest lock, Oliver's head position and the way his hands were locked are what I think prevented his final shot from being called a takedown.

The edge of the mat argument employed by those who thought Oliver had a takedown I think reflects on our conditioning as fans and wrestlers more than it does actual rules. The edge of the mat usually creates big scrambles with the popular kick-turn-kick three-step used by defensive wresters to avoid giving up the takedown. When offensive wrestlers hang onto one leg and then REEEEAAAAAACHH for the other both fans and the referees are ready to call an immediate takedown. Hell, even the defensive wrestler tends to give in a little when his second ankle is finally nabbed. Reaction times are truncated and both fans and referees understand the second ankle to indicate immediate control.

In this way wrestling in the middle of the mat is significantly different than wrestling on the edge. Stieber had more options to pursue and as with all middle of the mat takedown attempts was given a wider berth in exploring those defensive options. The takedown wasn't happening on the edge of the mat so Stieber wasn't conditioned to sense that he'd given up a takedown. Also, with Oliver's head lodged in his crotch and with his thighs flat against the mat, Stieber reacted like a wrestler in a scrambling position which was essentially perceived by the referee(s) as the case. There was no need to declare finality to the action because not only were they not n the edge but Stieber's back wasn't exposed AND the referee wasn't acknowledging the clock.

(Side note: John Smith and Eric Guerrero stayed on stage after the match to shake Stieber's hand. I KNOW that is what we EXPECT as fans, but in such a difficult time they showed class to congratulate the opposing wrestler even as theirs jumped from the stage in disappointment.)

Q: Sounds like Ed Ruth is bumping up to 184 next season and Matt Brown will wrestle 174 for PSU. I have a two-part question: How do you think Ruth does at 184 in both the Big Ten and NCAAs. What about Brown at 174?

Ed Ruth was the InterMat Wrestler of the Year this past season (Photo/Tony Rotundo, WrestlersAreWarriors.com)
Foley: Heading into next season Ed Ruth is my selection as best overall wrestler in the country. Confident as I am in his ability, Ruth will face a stacked weight class including defending NCAA champion Steve Bosak (Cornell) and 2011 NCAA runner-up Robert Hamlin (Lehigh), both back for their senior campaigns. Still, if Ruth can maintain his dominance next season then he'll not only walk through Big Tens and NCAAs, he'll also earn InterMat Wrestler of the Year honors again and also claim the Dan Hodge Trophy.

Matt Brown will do just fine and could easily contend for both the Big Ten and NCAA titles. His teammates (most of whom are PRETTY GOOD) think of him as some sort of superhero with limitless amounts of conditioning and incredible athleticism. Another year of technique and I don't see why he's not top three at the NCAA tournament. (Remember before this season Brown spent two years in Africa completely removed from wrestling.) He could very well do much better than third place, which could result in another NCAA team title for the Nittany Lions who will be in position to put as many as five wrestlers into the finals.

Five wrestlers into the finals? You're right to be shaking your head. The Nittany Lions could squeeze in a sixth. Yes, they're that loaded.

Q: What do you make of Sammie Henson to Mizzou? It'll be weird seeing him coach against Tyler Caldwell.
-- Andrew H.


Foley: Sammie Henson has experienced one of the most frustrating careers in college coaching. Absolutely no assistant coach has a more immediate impact on a program with more consistency than Sammie. He's a genuine dude, family man and a tough-as-nails leader, but when its come time for the increase in responsibility he's gotten some tough breaks. My hope for non-Mizzou fans is that we'll see a big-time program extend him the opportunity and until then I'm on the Sammie bandwagon screaming to AD's: GIVE THIS MAN A HEAD COACHING JOB!

Henson will do wonderful at Mizzou. The team had 10 NCAA qualifiers and no All-Americans in 2012 and I'd predict -- depending on which conference they land in -- that we'll see eight NCAA qualifiers and three All-Americans in 2013. Sammie has THAT type of impact on a program. Look for returning starters Alan "Dirty" Waters, Kyle Bradley and Drake Houdashelt to make big gains in the first semester.

I love that you mentioned Tyler Caldwell! Neither of these guys will let their admiration for each other get in the way of a good competition. If Mark Perry would coach against Chris Perry, I wouldn't doubt for a second that Henson would corner his Tiger against Caldwell.

Q: You posted up some cool videos of Marcelo Garcia. Have you gone back and done any wrestling recently? Was there a big difference?
-- Mark B.


Foley: I have. Yesterday I wrestled with Minnesota's Chris Dardanes for 45 minutes and though I outweigh him by thirty pounds and stand six inches taller my neck is so sore from being bullied that I'm staring at my computer screen with my head on a tilt. I much prefer being choked out by Marcelo Garcia to being head snapped by a Big Ten All-American wrestler.

One significant difference between the sports is the pace and the anxiety you feel while competing on your feet. I can "pull guard" in jiu-jitsu (go to my back) and be in a better scoring position, whereas in wrestling I HAVE to stay on top or else I'm losing. That variable alone decreases the anxiety of of a match by eliminating that necessity of aggression on your feet. And remember, in jiu-jitsu you are only ONE move away from an equalizer, even if you're on your back.

Q: Bo Jordan committed to Ohio State even though his father, uncle, and cousin wrestled at Wisconsin. I think that this shows us it's all going downhill in Madison, don't you?
-- Aaron M.


Foley: Alarmist. Would you wrestle for Tom Ryan? I would, especially if I lived in Ohio.

That 'Little Jordan' chose to compete for Ohio State isn't surprising and isn't indicative of a larger problem at Wisconsin. Yes, Barry Davis has been going through a tough streak as of late, but he's one hell of a good coach and I suspect that given this year to prove his wrestlers can compete at the NCAA tournament we'll see an influx of talent for the recruiting class rankings in 2013.

Too much is made of what family members do in comparison to their familial predecessors. That we've had high profile brothers (Chris and Mark Perry) choose different schools is actually indicative of a very healthy family life. Supporting your children on their individual path to success seems to me like one of the highest ideals you can achieve as a parent.

That written, my kids WILL ATTEND the University of Virginia.

Q: I was wondering your opinion on what was the best individual rivalry in wrestling. Collegiate and international?
-- Brad H.


Foley: The best collegiate rivalry of the past 20 years: Brent Metcalf vs. Darrion Caldwell or Mark Perry vs. Johny Hendricks.

The best collegiate rivalry going forward: Tony Nelson vs. Mike McMullan.

The best international rivalry of the past 20 years: Keith Sieracki vs. Matt Lindland.

The best international rivalry going forward: Denis Tsargush vs. Jordan Burroughs.

Q: Battle of the Batmen Tournament Edition: Val Kilmer vs. Michael Keaton and George Clooney vs. Christian Bale?
-- D. Thompkins


(Semifinal results: Michael Keaton dec. Val Kilmer 6-1. Bale tech. fall Clooney 18-3, 2:26).

Foley: Who is the Batman?

Let's start with the one sure best-of in the Batman franchise: Heath Ledger playing the Joker is the best villain of the franchise and has a claim to best overall acting performance in the franchise. Can we all agree on this?

Michael Keaton, who as we've discussed has had a so-so career since the late 90s, introduced audiences to the idea of Batman. His success in portraying Bruce Wayne's ass-kicking side was something he did well enough to spawn the Spiderman movies. Christian Bale has taken the role and elevated to a new potential, which also may or may not have given incentive to other superhero franchises (like Spiderman) to simply start over. Do you over-credit Keaton by saying that his original incarnation was the only thing that made possible Bale's role? Or do we treat it as an inevitability?

Bale has an argument as one of the top ten actors of the past 15 years. If you want a passionate portrayal of a complicated character you seek out Daniel Day-Lewis (greatest living actor) or you find Bale. He's dedicated himself to his craft and created believers out of studios and fans. Even his role in Terminator Salvation could have flopped, but his detail and professional approach (NSFW) to the art of acting might have carried him past all his competitors.

As Bale has become one of the biggest actors in the world, Keaton has struggled to find work and leave an impression on younger audiences. And I REPEAT: Bale lost 60 pounds for a role. That type of caloric restriction appeals to the wresting community and gives him the win.

It WAS a foregone conclusion, Bale maj. dec. Keaton, 12-1.

Comments

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dbabbitts (1) about 11 months ago
As a great as the Caldwell/Metcalf final was...one of the best collegiate rivalries in the past 20 years was Conrad/Mocco...
trfoley (1) about 11 months ago
There were some awesome rivalries sent my way. Maybe an online poll?
CoachC (2) about 11 months ago
Dude, if Sanderson really wants to win, and win big, Ruth stays at 174 and cancels out Perry at OSU. That would be cancels out for two more years. Brown can handle the move to 184. If he pushes Ruth harder than anyone, make that move. True, Ruth wins either weight, but he also makes it very difficult for OSU to win 174. That is the name of the game, to win the championships. Sanderson should not move Ruth. He should move Brown.
mjmason1 (1) about 11 months ago
You didn't not want to answer the question regarding Oliver vs. Stieber, and whether or not that was a takedown, but I'm glad you did. There are two ways to look at what happened at the end of that match and you made your case for Stieber. I saw it differently, but there is a bigger issue. Unfortunately, no one wants to talk about that bigger issue here and that's Stieber's deliberate and flagrant stalling. Stalling is a huge problem in collegiate wrestling today, and it is exactly why the sport continues to struggle developing its fan base. Just look at the action in years past when Jon Smith or Tom Brands were wrestling and you'll see a sport where athletes didn't get a one or two point lead and then spend the rest of the match trying to look like they were wrestling. Tolerating stalling like Stieber employed against Oliver is detrimental to the sport. Stieber won because he spent the last period running away from Oliver. But no one wants to write about that sad fact, or that wrestling today is about perfecting the stall. The rules relating to stalling better change or the decline of wrestling will continue.
trfoley (1) about 11 months ago
I'm going to agree that we should always be on the lookout for blatant stalling, but part of competitive athletics is intelligent lead defense. It can drive us MAD when its not our guy, but that just means the game gets better when we are forced to create new attacks late in the third. Ever see the legs-only inside trip by Chris Fleeger against Shaw Bunch (I think)? He caught the runner off the whistle!
GoBlue150 (1) about 11 months ago
T.R., I typically have alot of respect for your perspective, but you really raised a "red flag" with your analysis of the Oliver takedown. I wrestled for 21 years, coached Div. I college wrestling and have continued to remain involved in the sport since leaving coaching in 2001. That was an absolutely obvious takedown. To the point, head position does not matter (rules), how/where the hands are locked does not matter (rules), and the defensive wrestler's lock does not matter in this situation. Hell, look at the picture posted with your article...he is holding on saying a prayer. Would you have preferred Oliver to elevate his hips to try to get an angle, only to allow Stieber to roll him through? Oliver had both legs secured with NO option for Stieber to score or neutralize the position. While I hate the idea of sounding supportive of an Okie State wrestler, there is no arguement to be made here. Oliver got robbed. To echo Mason's comment, BOTH Stiebers are notorious stallers. Look at the "victory" the other Stieber had over Russell...no chance that happens 99 out of 100 times. I am in 100% agreement that stalling needs to be addressed in the college ranks. And, not to stir the pot, I consider "the funk" style to be stalling.
trfoley (1) about 11 months ago
Thanks for the well thought out response. You definitely backup your assertion that Oliver should've been awarded the two. I think that live action changes the perspective of the call and like I said I could see it have ing been called TWO and NOBODY complaining ... except maybe Tom Ryan.

Taking shots at FUNK? Whoa, whoa, whoa! Why? You think it slows down the action? I've always thought it was a continuation of the action, and enjoyed the fluidity. Do you think it adds to the number of stalemates?

Maybe a topic for the mailbag?
mjmason1 (1) about 11 months ago
TR, thanks for your reply. Unfortunately, it only serves to bolster my earlier comment that no one wants to talk about the overwhelming amount of stalling going on in collegiate wrestling today, and how that is negatively impacting the sport. Instead, you want to talk about "intelligent lead defense." I fully understand the difference between strategic defense and blatant stalling. I would never confuse the successful strategy and unique style of a Tyler Caldwell with the flagrant stalling, and actual running away, employed by Logan Stieber. A strategy of defense is absolutely a part of any competitive athletics just like it is used in warfare, self defense and chess.

But is is absolutely a matter of degree. What Stieber engaged in during the finals had nothing to do with intelligence. He was outclassed in talent and the only way to win was to avoid wrestling his opponent. And my point is that this happens far too much in wrestling today where guys get a one or two point advantage and cease all action -- except for what they need to do to convince the refs they're actually trying. It's nonsense and it is absolutely hurting the sport I love.

I would much rather watch a Jordan Oliver and a David Taylor push the offense than a Logan Stieber run away or hang on for dear life. I think most fans would too. But the rules don't push that offense like they used to, and it is absolutely mind-boggling watching those who rely on a healthy high school and collegiate wrestling program in this country advocate otherwise or look the other way. Wrestling is struggling as a collegiate sport and the lack of action is a large part of that problem. MMA, on the other hand, doesn't appear to have that challenge. Of course, with MMA, there is nothing but action.
Dean20 (1) about 11 months ago
I agree mjmason, I've seen far too much stalling lately. I wouldn't call Tom Brands a staller as a wrestler but he knew his Iowa team this last season was overmatched vs Penn State. I guess he felt the only way for the Hawkeyes to have a chance was to stall to keep the scores down. It nearly worked but it's just not what wrestling should be about. CoachC: Your theory makes good sense with Ruth but he can't physically stay at 174. Last year was a struggle for him and other than wrestling Mike Brown was his toughest part of the season.